r/worldnews Jun 17 '22

Chess - Nino Batsiashvili wins Georgian Women’s Chess Championship, for the 4th time, same number of times as Nona Gaprindashvili, the 1st female grandmaster. Not Appropriate Subreddit

https://www.chessdom.com/gm-nino-batsiashvili-wins-79th-georgian-womens-chess-championship/

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157 Upvotes

23

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

While I can understand why we divide some competitions by gender, why would we do so in competitions of the mind?

17

u/Hungry-Fruit Jun 17 '22

It's just to encourage more women to get into chess, tournaments are either mixed or female only, generally.

5

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

We have enough problems with inappropriate gender discrimination. I think there are better ways to promote chess to women then promote the idea that men and women are not equal when it comes to mental competitions.

16

u/Hungry-Fruit Jun 17 '22

Sounds lovely in theory, but the reality is you can get far more women to want to play chess at a high level if you give them the option of female only competition. It's a practical solution that isn't perfect but seems to be better than them not existing at all.

3

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

This is one of those things I think might be good in the short run but not good in the long run. Equality means treating things equally. Having a women’s tournament might help get more women into chess but at the same time, it’s easy to believe that it would continue to allow women uncomfortable with playing against men a way to avoid that and it means men who don’t think they should be playing against women a way to continue to feel that way.

For true equality to exist we have to stop unnecessarily dividing people and then let time do its thing.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 17 '22

[deleted]

1

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

What I would say is that if you’re female and playing a sport/game where there is no gender advantage and yet you still be uncomfortable competing against men, getting over that feeling is the price you pay for equality. You think some men don’t go into a competition feeling nervous about competing? Of course they do, but they have to get past that in order to compete.

The long we continue to have separate women’s tournaments, the longer it will take to have equality.

2

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

If it's promoting that idea then it's bad. What if it's not promoting that idea?

1

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

How can it not be promoting the idea that men and women shouldn’t play competitive chess against each other? That’s exactly what it’s promoting.

Imagine if I started one of those cooking show competitions and segregated it. One show was only for men and the other only for women. People would think I’m nuts and I would certainly be promoting the idea that men and women aren’t equal when it comes to cooking.

3

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

I'm not saying your question is bad. But before I respond, please just humour me: What if it's not promoting that idea? Is there anything else wrong? Or is this the only concern you have?

2

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

My only concern is that it’s contributing to inequality. Anything that divides us unnecessarily, suggests that we should be divided. It reinforces the idea in those that already have it and may sway those who are on the fence about it.

1

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

Ok I see. Now: It wasn't my intention, but I've made my response to this comment in another comment. Lol.

2

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

Why don’t you paste it here so I don’t have to guess. :)

1

u/nicbentulan Jun 18 '22

I assume you're joking because we are kinda discussing this in other thread now...?

1

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

Yeah but I actually figured that was the case for sports / esports / mindsports / gaming in general? Or are there some that really restrict female?

1

u/ascpl Jun 17 '22

It's something of a perennial question in chess. There is likely not one answer...sexist history of the sport and its players are likely mostly to blame but then it continues to be in place supposedly to attract more female players. At the current moment, it may be important to have it this way in top level competitions due to the top rated players being predominantly men, so if tournament spots are given out according to rating, then that would not be so great for top women players. It could be argued to be important at lower levels too, though, as some female players express not being comfortable playing against men. One could imagine this being very real at a high school level when immaturity is very high. OFC there are also lots of open tournaments that do not divide by gender.

This topic has been discussed many times on r/chess I'm sure you can find better more thoughtful answers there if you want to look

1

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

My response to these kinds of questions actually generalises to all sports / gaming

I initially thought other sports were divided while certain sports/mind sports/esports like chess, 9LX, csgo and valorant weren't divided.

But are physical sports really divided actually? I kinda figured they're the same case after all. Idk.

Like is there really men's basketball? Or is there just basketball that happens to be 99% men, i.e. the case of chess / 9LX is not different from the case of basketball?

1

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

Good question. It's not divided into men Vs women. It's divided into all Vs women only, i.e. there's just an extra women's only.

Actually I initially thought other sports were divided while certain sports/mind sports/esports like chess, 9LX, csgo and valorant weren't divided.

But are physical sports really divided actually? I kinda figured they're the same case after all. Idk.

1

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

We have women’s basketball, golf, all of the Olympic sports, and more that I’m not thinking of. Those are all appropriate because there are undeniable physical differences that make it difficult for women to compete against men in many sports.

But mental competitions shouldn’t be amongst them. Heck, if anything I think women may have an edge there.

2

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

Yeah my question is is there REALLY men's, say, basketball? Or is there just basketball for either men or women that happens to be 99% men?

1

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

There are professional woman’s basketball teams.

1

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

I know! But what I'm asking is:

Are there MEN-EXCLUSIVE basketball teams as opposed to men-or-women basketball teams that HAPPEN to be 99% men, i.e. they CAN allow women, but they don't have any women because women just haven't reached that high a level yet?

If not, then I guess it would be the same deal with chess and 9LX (and csgo and valorant...I guess basically mind sports, esports and other non-physical sports). The idea here, which you may not necessarily agree with: is that because of sexism and stuff women have not reached that high a level compared to men even though biologically they are capable of reaching such a high level. Thus, women's tournaments (and women's chess titles and stuff) exist as a form of feminism to compensate for the sexism. However, there are no men's only tournaments. There are men-or-women tournaments that just so HAPPEN to be 99% men, i.e. they CAN allow women, but they don't have any women because women just haven't reached that high a level yet.

When I found out that this was the case for chess and 9LX (and the other stuff), it made me rethink as to what was the case in the usual physical sports.

I thought there was a dichotomy between physical sports and non-physical sports in that physical sports are segregated (i.e. have men-exclusive, have women-exclusive but don't have men-or-women events) while non-physical sports merely have women-exclusive (i.e. have men-or-women events, have women-exclusive events but don't have men-exclusive events).

But then I realised that would be kinda nonsensical.

I think what happens in all sports/games/esports/mind sports is that when people say 'men's sports' what they mean is 'men-or-women sports that just so HAPPEN to be 99% men, i.e. they CAN allow women, but they don't have any women because women just haven't reached that high a level yet'.

I mean, are there really women who are that good at, say, basketball like can compete with the top men but simply aren't allowed to play with them?

Ah well in that case if the answer is really yes, then I think I'd like to turn it around and ask why there are/were women who were as good as lebron or kobe but weren't allowed to compete with or against lebron or kobe.

2

u/TheManInTheShack Jun 17 '22

Woman are no disallowed from playing in the NBA. In fact, the NBA did once draft a woman.

I suspect the problem is that there a few women who believe they could perform well enough to have a chance. In basketball, men are likely to have too much of a physical advantage.

1

u/nicbentulan Jun 18 '22

oh hell wow RIP thanks for sharing.

But anyway, so you see? I don't think basketball is actually different from chess / 9LX.

But then I think your question is correct in spirit but wrong in letter: I think your question should be like

'Women cannot compete with men in physical sports possibly for a combination of sexism and physical disadvantage as part of inherent physical differences of men and women. What about in non-physical sports? Is it just sexism then? Or are there neurological things too? And is sexism really that big a thing in the physical sports too?'

However, I do think that the people who responded to your original phrasing of the question are wrong too. Eg see my response here to u/ascpl who said here:

It's something of a perennial question in chess.

The 'perennial question' has a wrong answer.

  • They usually say like 'unlike in physical sports, women's tournaments exist as feminism to combat sexism in chess / 9LX blah blah blah in that because of sexism, women do not achieve as much of their potential in chess / 9LX, assuming they even get into chess / 9LX' as if chess / 9LX is any different from physical sports in this regard. What they should answer IMNSHO is that chess / 9LX is the same as in physical sports: I don't believe any sport has 'segregation'. They just have extra women-exclusive.
  • Then, the answer should guide the 'perennial question' to the real perennial question as I quoted above where I ask why women can't compete when there are no relevant physical, except possibly neurological, differences between men and women when it comes to non-physical sports, why can't women compete.

In this case, if the answer for non-physical sports is, say, 99% sexism and 1% (physical or) neurological differences, then what does this say about the physical sports? Surely it's not 99% vs 1% too? Then that's when we get to the studies conducted so and so as to how prevalent sexism, how much sexism impacts females, etc.

I haven't really read up on those studies, but I have a feeling it's nowhere near 99% vs 1%. Maybe 60% vs 40%?

What would be really cool is if we didn't have sexism in the world to really control for this 3rd variable and then we can see this physical sports vs non-physical sports thing. Maybe men and women will be about equal in non-physical sports but they won't be in physical sports, and then people will say 'Oh I guess it wasn't really sexism for physical sports after all. Go figure.'

4

u/PetersonTom1955 Jun 17 '22

It continues to astound me how many world-class chess players come out of Georgia. They have an amazing tradition of excellence.

2

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

Especially female right? That's what I remember Nigel Short said.

https://youtu.be/zWO30o1K3Mc

4

u/PetersonTom1955 Jun 17 '22

Maybe it's easier to notice amid the crush of world-class players because Georgian names are so distinctively Georgian, and yes, especially women. That requires a culture that values and fosters women's contributions.

2

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

0

u/[deleted] Jun 17 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

Anyhoo as for the lawsuit, really? Well the court doesn't seem to think so, does it?

0

u/ascpl Jun 17 '22

A single line by a fictional character in a fictional show that wasn't factually correct is hardly lawsuit worthy.

3

u/YALBO Jun 17 '22

An inaccurate line, about a specific real person, still living, in a show so popular that it massively increased the public profile of the game of chess and probably formed a lot of people's impressions of what the competitive game and the people who play it are like. In her place I'm sure I'd be annoyed too.

2

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

Well I'm not saying I disagree but the case wasn't dismissed, so plainly the court disagrees with you right?

2

u/ascpl Jun 17 '22

I am sure the court disagrees with me about a lot of things that doesn't change my opinion

1

u/nicbentulan Jun 17 '22

ok thanks for the clarification.